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Market research for new PowerPC system
https://powerdeveloper.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1739		 Page 1 of 8
Author:  markos [ Sat Sep 26, 2009 3:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Market research for new PowerPC system
As posted here, here, here, here, here, and in Greek here and here, I am doing a market research about a new PowerPC system. For those who don't want to follow links here is the text:

I'm considering funding the design & production of a new PowerPC system (well, the motherboard, the rest are typical pc stuff and a case). No this is not a joke, I've been wanting to do this for a long time, and perhaps the chance will be given to me now. But before I spend any money on this, I want to do a little market research first. I know the market is literally "dying" for a new powerpc motherboard, but exactly how many are there that want to buy one?

Ok, let's give some rough specs first. I'm considering 3 choices -not in order of probability/importance:

1. MPC8640D-based. It will be dual core at 1Ghz -most likely, higher frequencies are much more expensive and the cost of the final board would be prohibitive.
2. MPC8610-based. Single core at 1Ghz, slightly less expensive, and includes a 2D DIU display unit -quite fast, but no 3D unfortunately.
3. QorIQ P1022-based. Again dual core at 1Ghz (1055Mhz to be precise). Apart from the much lower chip price, this one includes dual gigabit ethernet, dual SATA, USB 2.0 and a 2D DIU display unit (same as the MPC8610). So this one would lower the cost of the board quite much. Disadvantages: No AltiVec unit (it sucks I know), though it includes an SPE unit which is not that bad, and availability will be in Q3/Q4 2010, so that's a long wait.

Now, the end motherboard will probably be MicroATX (in the 8640D/8610 case) or PicoITX (in the P1022 case), and it will definitely include:

* SATA connectors
* USB (possibly 2 back and 2 front, but that's discussable)
* Dual gigabit (at least one will be there, in the case of the MPC8640D we might even have 4!!!)
* Sound (of course, SPDIF support will definitely be there)
* 1 PCI-e slot 1x
* 1 PCI-e slot (4x in the P1022 case, 8x in the MPC86xx cases)

Ok, what I want to know is if people would really really buy one of these. End price is estimated to be ~around~ 350EUR for the P1022 board or ~500EUR (definitely more in the case of 8640D) in the case of the other boards. Besides being more expensive, the MPC86xx chips, don't include SATA, USB and only one of ethernet/sound (quad-gige in MPC8640D case, or sound in the case of MPC8610). I know this sounds a lot, but it's the reality, there is not enough funding to build enormous amounts of units and bring the prices down substantially, we have to start low and build up from there. In case you are wondering, yes, the boards will be designed/produced by bPlan and funded by my company (Codex).

Support for OSes: Linux definitely, Haiku most probably and there is a possibility of supporting AmigaOS/MorphOS, which will depend on the actual
feedback I get from those users.

I would like to make a list of everyone that is really interested in such a system, so it would really help me make a decision sooner rather than later if you would send me a few personal details to markos@codex.gr with subject "PowerPC board":

* Name
* Country
* email (definitely, I'd have to reach you back!)
* Phone/Skype (optional, please include international prefix)
* Forum you saw this post (ok, PowerDeveloper in this case)
* OS of preference
* board you would be most interested in (MPC8610/MPC8640D/P1022)
* preferred price (please have in mind the estimated price quotes I mentioned, it might be lower but that's not very probable)
* Other notes/comments

Also, I found out that I had to state my case on many forums to prove that this is not vapourware. Well, it will not be vapourware, if I get feedback. So far the feedback I got can be summarized here:

http://www.codex.gr/index.php?pageID=&blogItem=60

Thanks a lot for your time and I hope this system becomes a reality.
Author:  ironfist [ Sat Sep 26, 2009 4:30 pm ]
Post subject: 
Sounds way too cheap to be honest. 500 EUR for a
complete motherboard where just the CPU accounts
for almost half of that?

How are these money supposed to cover the design
costs. And most importantly - what's in it for you?

You take quite a big risk in this project and if you
don't take your fair share I'm afraid the project
won't survive for too long..

I think around 500 EUR for the cheapest board and
maybe 750 for the expensive one would be a better
sum.

That being said - the project sounds interesting
and deserves respect.
Author:  blu [ Sat Sep 26, 2009 6:12 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Sounds way too cheap to be honest. 500 EUR for a complete motherboard where just the CPU accounts
for almost half of that?
all candidate chips are essentially SoCs, and as such will require few companion chips.
Author:  markos [ Sun Sep 27, 2009 12:41 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Quote:
Sounds way too cheap to be honest. 500 EUR for a complete motherboard where just the CPU accounts
for almost half of that?
all candidate chips are essentially SoCs, and as such will require few companion chips.
Yup.
Author:  markos [ Sun Sep 27, 2009 1:45 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
How are these money supposed to cover the design
costs. And most importantly - what's in it for you?
Profit? :)
Quote:
I think around 500 EUR for the cheapest board and
maybe 750 for the expensive one would be a better
sum.
Initially there will be only one system, we will see in the future if there will be more, depending on the success of the first.
Author:  bbrv [ Sun Sep 27, 2009 4:56 am ]
Post subject: 
We would encourage all of you that are seriously interested in this project to write Konstantinos. The "power" in PowerDeveloper started with PowerPC. Most of us have spent years working and promoting this instruction set architecture. We are wishing Konstantinos the best.

R&B :)
Author:  Jerzy Guc (Drako) [ Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
The project is interesting :)
I hope it will lead to a sale new ppc board .

I need new hardware on PowerPC. This might be the last chance for this:)
Author:  corto [ Sun Sep 27, 2009 2:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
I already wrote to Konstantinos as I dream about a new PPC board ! I voted for 8610 but 8640/8641 would be great !
PowerPC is great but we miss boards for a desktop usage.

I really the project will be successful.
Author:  SoundSquare [ Mon Sep 28, 2009 7:12 am ]
Post subject: 
mail sent, i hope it will become a reality.
Author:  markos [ Mon Sep 28, 2009 7:13 am ]
Post subject: 
Update:

http://www.codex.gr/index.php?pageID=&blogItem=62
Author:  markos [ Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:24 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Sounds way too cheap to be honest. 500 EUR for a
complete motherboard where just the CPU accounts
for almost half of that?
It's not as expensive actually, only MPC8640D is so expensive, and I was clear that in this the price will 99% raise above 500€. Unless Freescale makes a crazy deal and clears stock for example.

How are these money supposed to cover the design
costs. And most importantly - what's in it for you?
[/quote]

a) Personal funding and external investor. b) Profit :)
Quote:
You take quite a big risk in this project and if you
don't take your fair share I'm afraid the project
won't survive for too long..
I like risks :)
Do not worry, if anything I want to be able to fund partly the next batch anyway.
Quote:
I think around 500 EUR for the cheapest board and
maybe 750 for the expensive one would be a better
sum.
IMHO, anything that is more expensive than 500€ (psychological barrier) will fail, unless it's REALLY state-of-the-art hardware that kicks ass. I don't think anyone can do that with PowerPC nowadays unless one managed to do a netbook version of Power7! :D

So far users seem to agree, and MPC8610 leads the numbers.

Thanks for feedback though :)
Author:  Neko [ Mon Sep 28, 2009 12:03 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
So far users seem to agree, and MPC8610 leads the numbers.

Thanks for feedback though :)
Just a fair notification of the high and low points of each processor in the running:

MPC8610:
* Single core, low power, high performance. ~1GHz. AltiVec.
* PCI Express and PCI interfaces
* Built-in audio (AC97/SSI/SPDIF)
* Built-in video (DIU)
* No built-in ethernet or other peripherals
* Cheap, available

MPC8640/MPC8640D:
* Single/dual core, medium power, high performance. ~1.3GHz. AltiVec. Needs active cooling.
* PCI Express and PCI interfaces
* No video or audio (finding a video chip to place on-board would cost more than the rest of the BOM, so you will be using PCI Express graphics cards..)
* Gigabit ethernet
* Costly, but available

P1022 (or other QorIQ):
* Many, many cores, low power, performance remains to be seen but 4 cores at ~1.0GHz can't be a bad thing. No AltiVec. SPE instead.
* e500 (Book E) architecture rather than e600 may cause OS port problems (extra work)
* PCI Express etc.
* Built-in video (DIU)
* Built-in audio
* Built-in Ethernet
* Built-in SATA
* Built-in USB
* Not sampling until next year...
* Mid-range price

It's definitely true that the MPC8610 is the most affordable and most flexible. Not having ethernet is a bit of a bind, but this can be easily solved given the massive amounts of peripheral expansion possible. Ethernet, SATA, USB will all have to be peripheral chips or a Southbridge (although no suitable SB exists).

Video and audio are usually the most complicated and expensive things to add to an SoC platform if they are not integrated.The MPC8640D would actually cost more not because of only the processor but because of providing other options (PCI audio chips cost more than AC97, etc.).

QorIQ would be by far the cheapest - and smallest - board, but the delay is too long.
Author:  Karl [ Mon Sep 28, 2009 12:07 pm ]
Post subject: 
I would prefer a MPC8640D in the first place.
The QorIQ P1022 isn't an option. Why not use an QorIQ P4080?

CELL/BE isn't an option? Too pricey, I think.
Wasn't there roumors about a "POWER7" in standard socket? ;-)
Is a PPC970GX an option?
Author:  blu [ Mon Sep 28, 2009 12:09 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
CELL/BE isn't an option? Too pricey, I think.
Wasn't there roumors about a "POWER7" in standard socket? ;-)
Is a PPC970GX an option?
just a guess on my part, but i don't think markos has the luxury of going with a non-SoC chip.
Author:  Karl [ Mon Sep 28, 2009 12:49 pm ]
Post subject: 
Ah okay. Yes ... I've forgotten.
So, my choice would be defently MPC8640D. GHz doesn't matter. I would prefer 1066MHz (533x2)
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