It looks like SUSE is finishing in front as the Linux distribution of choice for the 5121efika (CruxPPC and Gentoo will also win boards for development).

Are there any others you feel strongly about for the Linux future?

R&B :)

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http://bbrv.blogspot.com

Hi.

Will there be a "special version" of SuSe specifically for the 5121efika?

What I mean is that I think any "standard" Linux distro is aimed at generic x86 or PPC hardware, not the low-power and highly specialized CPU's such as the 5121e.
It would be so nice if we could develop a distro specifically for the 5121efika. After all, we know what hardware platform it will run on, so we can throw out all the bloat and extra's which don't make sense to have on the Efika.

Gentoo makes a lot of sense, but maybe not for those using the Efika as a "day to day" computer platform. However for a consumer device doing a specific set of tasks (play video and audio, brose the web, ...) optimisations should be made, and then the compile times don't matter as it only needs to be done once, and then imaged onto all the devices.
The memory space alone that this saves would be worth it, saving a lot of Flash drive space for other stuff.


Johan.

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Johan Dams, Genesi USA Inc.
Director, Software Engineering

Yep, I have a blog... PurpleAlienPlanet

i'd better focus on easier ways to install anything on the Efika. Which distro is the best depends too much on your own usage of the board and needs. Painful installations are still the weak point.

Hi.
True, but that's not the main issue.
In order to make the EFIKA viable, it needs to be in a consumer product. That's what the whole THTF deal is all about I believe. The main issue is not the 200 or even 1000 or so people on this board and MorphOS users. The goal should be to get an end-user device in the shops for hundreds of thousands of people to buy. End users don't care about how to install an operating system. It has to work out of the box.
In order to make the end user experience good, the system has to be as fast as possible while leaving as much space on the flash drive available for storing music and video for them to play with.

Developers can basically install anything they want, or even develop for it using a net mounted file system like I did here: #338

The same goes for the hackers who want to make the system run their own software, or use it for different purposes. It really wasn't that hard to get an OS running on the first EFIKA. The problem was that too many people assumed it to be an end user, all purpose computing device, as seen by the many people wanting to attach CD-ROM drives to it and expecting OpenOffice to run well on it. It just isn't intended for that.


Johan.

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Johan Dams, Genesi USA Inc.
Director, Software Engineering

Yep, I have a blog... PurpleAlienPlanet

So far the plan seems to be to generate a distribution installer based on 10.3 which will be tailored for the 5121E.

At some point, and specifically to tender to the "consumer device" ideas, we would move to using KIWI profiles so that you can install a system as a NAS, or as a media server, or as a TV/PVR box, or as a small desktop, all from the same media (a lot of it is common, but if you choose an installation right now on x86 or PPC, you get a desktop system which has full media playing, TV card drivers and everything included for no really good reason - even if you don't have a TV card it installs this stuff Just In Case It Didn't Detect It In The Installer).

Working out of the box is one ideal, but also reinstalling a system or customizing it is another. KuroBox is an example of a device which doesn't have a preinstalled OS because you need to fit your own disk first. It is geek-oriented but it is really just a Linkstation without the disk.. and Linkstations come with just enough software to run it as a NAS.

I don't think space on disk is that important unless you are expecting to use that disk space for something else - a 250GB disk with a few hundred MB taken up for the OS and tools is still over 249GB of disk space :)

You can also get a working Linux install in 32MB (base system, udev hardware detection and storage drivers, plus NFS or Samba server) but that doesn't mean it's globally useful.

~400MB seems to be the rough usage of disk space for a large Linux install with fonts, icons and a desktop. SuSE default installs at 1.2GB but I managed to cull it down to 900MB for my VMWare system without being too frugal. Without the Mac stuff, without installing portions of another desktop environment (cut out GTK/GNOME apps) it gets smaller and smaller. I never had much luck getting Gentoo installs down that far - the tedious tweaking of USE flags means you can make way too many mistakes up until that point, and install one package which may take up just that little extra space but not add any functionality to the system just due to a mistaken dependency. Add that to the build time (something which you do not get in Debian or SuSE :) and you are looking at being a very annoying Linux distribution.

Further space could be gained by intelligent compression on-disk - if it's flash then JFFS2 will handle this, for other filesystems then executables (programs and libraries, both..) can be handled with something like UPX. This will also speed up startup time of apps where disk speed is the bottleneck (and on the Efika, this is very true).

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Matt Sealey

Hi.
Sounds cool :-)
Sure, but I was thinking more of keeping the cost down when using a Flash based system. A 4GB flash drive is cheaper that 8GB, and the difference between using 400MB and 1.2GB in use certainly shows.


Of course, but on an end user device this wouldn't matter so mush. Do it once, image it, ship the product.
I was also not implying that Gentoo would be the best solution, but I do know and notice the speed differences in #338 when using Gentoo compared to Ubuntu. Since we're having the same core on the 5121e as the 5200B, optimization could make a big speed impact.
Also, I agree that compression should be used, as you said by for instance using JFFS2. We just have to make sure that this will be an option to choose during the installation process.


Johan.

_________________
Johan Dams, Genesi USA Inc.
Director, Software Engineering

Yep, I have a blog... PurpleAlienPlanet

It's never, ever like that. You do not just build a single system image and then install it and sell it for 2 or 3 years.. you cannot. The whole thing needs to be updated for security issues from time to time, new features or new package choices may come into play.

Updating these is a chore for developers in the team as much as it is a pain for users who run Gentoo.
Isn't this down more to compiler options used to build Gentoo, than it is down to binary packaging? As far as I can tell all the Ubuntu packages are built with extremely generic options (i.e. let gcc decide on tuning and processor type - usually PPC601 compatible code which will never run optimally on a 603e or G3..)

This is easily solvable, and you don't need Gentoo to do that. Unfortunately for everyone who loves Ubuntu, and Gentoo, and wishes to stick to those Linux distributions, we don't have any luck with providing friendly installations with them. The only sticky point booting the SuSE DVD on a Pegasos or Efika is finding a DVD drive to attach to it..

With Ubuntu's wild commercialism and lack of interest in anything that isn't a dual-core Intel chip, and Gentoo's steady decline over the past few years with a distinct lack of interest and manpower in the PPC team (this is ironic considering we were throwing money and systems at them..), and Debian's devolution into a warzone politik, I really think we need a distribution that cares about OEMs, ISVs, and the processor platform as a whole.

Novell & SuSE has shown considerable interest in PowerPC, has all the tools we need (including the ability to run second-stage install from a reboot - this is essential for the user-facing part of a system as the first thing you need to do is add a user account and set your hostname, something Ubuntu's oem-config manages to fail miserably on) and is increasing the PPC team size and support offered.. and they are perfectly happy to listen to Genesi and support our hardware.

It is by far and away the best option here, full stop. But if you guys have a better suggestion, that's what this thread is about..

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Matt Sealey

Of course! The thing I was saying was that if you have to tweak all the compile options once - not to be done by every user.
The company can then publish the updates as binaries and let users just download these. The users don't have to worry about the compiler options, but naturally, the burden falls on the developers...
Speed - probably, but the compactness and size of the binaries counts too.
Again, I'm not saying Gentoo is the solution, nor am I saying Gentoo should be at the end user device. What I am saying is that a custom designed distribution can give the required control.

Indeed! .

In that case, go for it!!
As long as the ties between Genesi and Novell are sound, this is the best option, and then my comments are void :-D


Johan.

_________________
Johan Dams, Genesi USA Inc.
Director, Software Engineering

Yep, I have a blog... PurpleAlienPlanet